. >> and so the killing just continues on the ground indefinitely, right? >> alas, and do we send in the marines or whatever we send in or we bomb them. >> and we get in the middle of a civil war and, of course, ends badly. and the region erupts. the russians. it seems to me that it's not in the russians' best interests in the long run to continue standing beside a tyrant who seems to me, if the past is prologue, cannot survive this in the long run. >> i think you're right in terms of the interests. but there is a peculiar aspect, namely putin's personality and personal obsessions. this is a man driven by nostalgia and resentment. he literally hates the fact that the soviet empire collapsed. he wants to recreate it. and he may be calculating that if we get bogged down in iran and in the region, he'll have an opening to crack down on something very important to europe and to us, georgia and as asser b azerbaijan. >> talking about the president needing more engagement, getting into areas where he can have a real impact, what does that look like, do you think,